Simplification in order to avoid Quality control issues is not the same as quality control.
The as for the rifles, those had design flaws, not related to quality control, like for example the AVT was incontrolable and the stock could not handle the force of it’s full auto fire. The AVS, had issues with it’s design that allowed dust and mud in, which caused jams, therefore it wasn’t suitable for military service. Etc
i did not say that is was not done, i said where they could, and in the opening of the invasion there where no engineering vehicles so if they could not fix them then and there with the parts that they had(often theye did not as logistics has always been russias weak point)
In the opening weeks of Barbarossa the Soviet union had basically no logistics set up what so ever. Tank didn’t even had ammo or fuel in any significant amount.
Which isn’t an issue with the tank design, but an issue with the red army it self
Well. I think it depends what you would call quality for a gun. For me it would be a mix of performance and reliability. Dont know if there is a definition for gun quality and so far most people here just combine some factors like the ones I mentioned.
With quality control comes things beyond if it works, like for example that all weapon fit a certain standard, like size material composición, weight etc.
In the Soviet union during WW2, gun parts were not identically made in every factory causing part compatibility issues in between diferent factories.
The materials used varied a bit too, so consistency and quality were not always assured, as the only thing that was tested was that the weapon fired well, regardless of all the other factors.
Only one of them won the war (USSR) and the other lost (Germany).
You really have no idea, do you?
Read/watch Stahel on that.
They literally counter atacked at Moscow, before any aid had arrived, do you even read?
Finland lost. USSR was not stopped, they were on an offensive when Finland begged for peace.
Shit argument, sorry. Pz II can’t be compared to T-34 in any dimension.
No. Buffer zone.
The part that was requested before the war for exchange, and then some.
Maybe secondary optional objective, however there’s no hard proof, but the main objective was completed.
Germany got pushed back, USSR didn’t.
Germany signed capitulation, USSR accepted Finland’s loss.
Because that wasn’t the goal.
Both wars.
Britain is not USSR’s dominion. They really didn’t like Finland waging war hand in hand with Adolf, obviously.
Here’s simple English for you: when you fight hand in hand with Adolf, you raise suspicion. Especially when you paint swastikas.
tf do I know, I never claimed that. Axis lost Barbarossa while they had numerical advantage, clear and simple.
If this hasn’t been done y’all with friend Adolf would’ve probably entered Leningrad too soon for Soviet liking.
France/UK weren’t doing jack shit, spring offensive showed how ez finnish defences could be broken.
Barbarossa directive exists as document.
You got WW directive at hand?
Both numbers several times less than your random number tho.
PzII was simply shit in 1941 and would be wuped by T-34 in seconds, easy as that.
They never disappeared from the front.
Germany got pushed back to Berlin, Soviets accepted peace talks and reparations. Difference.
It was the best tank as of 1941 and Germans confirmed that. That’s why it won the war in the end.
Everything that needed to be of precise quality was precise (i.e. cannons, optics), what details could be tolerated with some allowances were tolerated for speed of production.
Was at winning side of war, couldnt do shit alone.
Whats there to read ? Hardly significant casualties that were easily replaced.
And didnt gain any significant ground.
Yes ?
Quite sure it was as Winland is still independent.
Which as most soviet offenses against winland was rather massive failure.
Except it kept its crew alive.
Ah, just like germany was fighting for stray cats rights in soviet union.
Could have easily steamrolled USSR but those adorable stray cats made them change theyr mind.
Which was proven to be entirely useless and at most a mask to hide the horrible phyrric win which actually was a lose.
Right, just like theres no hard prove that it was indeed the stray cats that made hitler change hes mind of total annihilation of USSR.
Ofc with that exception, when ur just “moving” border you dont attack a country on its entire lenght.
Really starting to think that maybe the option B is indeed the one we should proceed with.
Yeah those just like Patton said, they allied with wrong enemy.
Couldnt have done anything without US assistance.
Well theres actually documents about this matter, stalin in teary eyes begging allies to declare war on winland.
So ussr was nazis as well as communists ?
And at which stage ?
Indeed just 20% casualties on entire army size. Real ez and still failed to conquer winland.
I believe its ur argument to back up. Not mine.
Not mine, a former soviet russian estimate.
Ah, well that explains the 1:7 ratio of soviet tanks.
True, actually disintigrated.
Yeah, by that time allies were already doing the hard job.
Then explain the 1:7 ratio.
Perhaps the B ?
It’s remarkable how much damage did you boys do to yourself in just few decades, erasing over 600 years of history in an eye-blink. To put it short Pjotr:
Nobody wanted to be with Soviets. Why? Because Adolf? Nope. Anyone and everything is just better than (((you))).
The atrocious slaughter what Austria-Hungary did to Imperial Russia was paled only by the massacre Soviets did to themselves, the holodrom, the purifications, Soviet affection on 1917 independence war (saved by the germans, once again), Russian affection on wars of: the 18th century, 17th century, 16th century, 15th century, multiple massacres, annexation, mass-raping, mass-arson, the genocide of Haukiluoto just few cute examples.
Finns would have chosen to be annexed by Encrazed Imperial Japan rather than Soviets, and still would have chosen wisely. Why do I say wisely? GPD per capita for instance, from 1950 to 1990. Well, to 2020.
Let’s compare to any country that had the courtesy of not maintaining independence, or even to the Great Motherland.
Thank you, Germany, from aid since 1864 to 1917 and to 1939 to 1944.
Everything really?.
Last time I checked it was kind of hard to find a set of magazines that would work with a specific ppsh. And don’t get me wrong the gun was great. But the quality of the ones mass produced, wasn’t amazing
I was talking about tanks, sorry.
Weapon magazines were indeed an issue.
I am wholeheartedly glad Finland kept its independance and didn’t fall under Soviet rule.
However A-H kind of sucked in WW1, Brusilov’s offensive rekt them. The German Empire was doing really well against Russia, I’ll give them that.
Did the most work by far.
Higher casualties and losses than ever predicted by German command, and way higher as soon as ummer of 1941 than anything on the western front.
The question is counter attacking or not before allied aid, not amount of ground gained, don’t be moving goalposts.
Finally you see the difference. Yes.
You don’t “stop” someone by begging for peace and signing just about any treaty to end the losing streak.
Mannerheim expressely stated the military was done, and they had to beg for peace.
When the war ended in March the Finnish Army was probably 1-2 weeks from complete and utter collapse.
And Mannerheim’s stratregy was to prevent the USSR from learning this at all costs.
The reality was: supplies, ammunition, morale, casualties were all abysmal for finns, retreating from 1st to 2nd line, to 3rd line, wanting to retreat further.
Had the Russians learned how close they were to completely breaking through, they never would have signed the peace treaty begged by the finns. - not my words, Ian McCollum’s.
Ouch.
Except not, it would be evaporated by a single T-34 shot.
Germany had Generalplan Ost & Barbarossa with clear goals.
Useless to you but not to Lelingrad, which could have been taken a year later if not for the buffer, cause you’d surely pass the Germans right in.
Germany had Generalplan Ost & Barbarossa with clear goals.
Mmm great dude to quote
Patton diary entry, September 15, 1945: Evidently the virus started by Morgenthau and Baruch of a Semitic revenge against all Germans is still working. … Harrison and his ilk believe that the Displaced Person is a human being, which he is not, and this applies particularly to the Jews, who are lower than animals.
Alternative history, invalid argument.
Anyone in their right mind would urge countries to declare war on Adolf’s allies.
USSR never fought hand in hand with Adolf or painted swastikas, though Finland is 2 for 2 here.
Barbarossa stage.
According to your fantasy numbers. 65k is not 20% of 1.9 million.
Quick maths.
Not the primary objective.
So you don’t have any source for the finnish fantasy of “USSR wanted to conquer us, no conquer = no win”.
So fantasy source.
I already explained to you the reasons for Soviet tank losses (also as always your fantasy ratio).
And T-34 is a factor which made it possible to defend in the first place.
Always fighting Adong and his buddies.
The hard job was always done by the USSR.
See above. Already explained to you in simple English multiple times.
Let alone this number being your fantasy.
Well they were fantastic at dying. Cant deny that.
Yet it was allies that stopped the industry of germany that could have easily out manufacture ussr.
While ussr was crying for lend-lease from allies.
And yet insignificant.
They did alot of counter attacks during barbarossa. Often ending up as onesided slaughter and massive casualties to ussr.
No they stopped them by staggering losses caused to ussr
Not really they ran out of ammunition. Just few years later they had even bigger army.
Luckily ussr had no clue about it.
Assuming there was any t-34 crews alive to take the shot.
And yet it still has better ratio than t34.
Not really as germans could have steamrolled moscow ez its your buddy AH that called the cease on attack. Indicating that they just didnt want to steamroll ussr.
Well it could have been taken rather easily. Finns decided not to do so as it wasnt theyr goal.
Well, majority of trucks, explosives & many other essentials required for war provided by US as soviets couldnt do anything alone.
Could have sworn molotov-ribbentrop pact was indeed between ussr & germany as well as mutual invasion to poland.
Its just history no need to be butthurt due to your nazi past.
Casualties tells different story.
65k probably died before they even got to front. So your propaganda stats are rather pathetic. Just like the pyrrhic victory.
Objectives tend to change when you figure out that your nearly 2million men army cant do shit against bunch of farmers.
Pathetic.
Quite sure the evidence has been provided more than enough times now.
Well soviet sources pretty much always are pure fantasy.
Ah the one were you confirmed that piece of shit t34 required 20:1 supremacy to be effective ?
Theres quite differency between defending and dying.
Fixed.
Dying is actually quite ez. Imagine the efforts US had to go thru fighting few fronts while carrying ussr. You cried over distance from urals. Murrica supplied you over seas and still you needed help from murrica to open another front.
Ah yes, due to t34 being so good tank it required 20:1 supremacy to be effective.
Sounds pretty shit tbh.
Much like ussr history of being carried by allies.
Sheesh. That’s some next level denial.
Unironically saying USSR didn’t break Germany is laughable in any decent conversation.
Damn, you really are in denial, aren’t you?
Literally so significant that WW2 was lost for Germany in August-September 1941 already. They would never recover from that point on.
Goalpost shifting continues. You claimed no counter attacks by USSR before allied help and got proven wrong.
Now hastily trying to find new jabs.
Losses don’t mean stopping if offensive continues and Finland retreats to 2nd and 3rd lines of defence lol. They mean slowing down.
Mannerheim’s words, not mine. Urging the government to start peace talks.
There were always T-34s and T-34 crews. That’s the beauty of it.
lmao you still can’t comprehend ‘ratios’ are not 1v1 clear field tank duels?
Talking about Pz II’s legendary ‘ratio’… pathetic really.
Haha nice try. Don’t betray your friends like that.
lol what? they litereally were defeated at the battle and counter attacked.
Except they were defeated and never attacked further than that there.
lol right. The 5 deer herders with spears were totally capable of breaking through to Leningrad, sure.
Germans couldn’t but finns could.
Alternative history.
Division of spheres of interest between two big countries and taking back century long parts of Russian Empire, sure.
Combined armies warfare - none, that’s what finns do.
Exactly. Calm down. It’s okay to have grandpa’s SS memorabilia and fond letters from Goering.
Germany failed Barbarossa.
Campaigns are not won or lost by casualties alone, when are finns gonna discover this enigma?
Your propaganda stats are rather pathetic.
EZ.
2 million didn’t attack Finland lol.
When the war ended in March the Finnish Army was probably 1-2 weeks from complete and utter collapse.
And Mannerheim’s stratregy was to prevent the USSR from learning this at all costs.
So no evidence. Got it.
Just like your ‘ratios’ and casualties in this thread.
Taken off the top of your head.
The one where you fail to find a better tank design from 1940.
Of all things you’d have some idea how wars work and how to lose them, but I guess not.
Hint: you die but you still win, not die and lose like finland.
Fighting and dying but making sure they all lose. Which they did.
Instead of dying and losing not once but twice like finland.
mmm yes 80% of German forced were destroyed by US drinking cola, not by Soviet forces.
mmm yes government wasn’t located in Moscow as well as most of army and population
When they did Germany was done.
Also I just love how your racist and nazi grandpas facts hurt so much you straight up ignore it. Sweet tears of shame.
Dude your whole argument is to just flat denial of any evidence that you dont agree with in you very bais opinion
Well they couldnt even break a nation of 3million, id say its laughable to pretend they could beat germany.
Quite sure germanys production increased after -41
So insignificant losses.
Im quite sure I said significant counter attacks, which there was none.
They wouldnt have signed the peace if they thought theyr incopetent military could actually meet theyr goals and conquer winland.
Well actually winland tried to negotiate peace thru entire winterwar as they werent allied with nazis like ussr.
For every german tank destroyed 7 soviet tanks were lost. No matter how much you deny the fact thats utterly horrible. If we pretend the t34 was best tank indeed, then your ancestor must have really been beyond mentally challenged to lose seven ( 7 ) tanks for every “obsolete” german tank.
Up to you, take a pick.
Friends, yes.
Well actually winland had worse casualty rates fighting off the other fascist group in north than they had against eastern fascist.
Hitler decided to halt the advance on Moscow and reinforce Army Groups North and South.
Elementary grade history.
Hitler decided to halt the advance on Moscow and reinforce Army Groups North and South.
Elementary grade history.
Probably, lucky for you it wasnt theyr goal.
Lend-lease another very elementary grade piece of history.
yeah, attacking poland together was entirely coincidential
nice try to squeel off from your nazi alliance.
oh you mean like making a formal alliance with nazis ?
We see the moustache mario is present but one leader is missing. Rumour says he unfortunately had better things to do such as feeding pigeons than meet a incopetent 3rd world leader.
But ironicly he had time to meet a leader of tiny nation.
Well not exactly, could say US industry won the eastern front rather than germany failing it.
Well they are, which is why ussr failed in such simple task as conquering winland.
And germany would have easily succeed in east if it wasnt for US.
Oh you mean stats like
https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-t-34-in-wwii-the-legend-vs-the-performance/#The%20T34’s%20Overall%20Combat%20Results%20in%201941
this which has all the sources for you to check ?
Sure aint nothing compared to your “sources”
According to Nikita Khrushchev, 1.5 million men were sent to Finland and one million of them were killed , while 1,000 aircraft, 2,300 tanks and armored cars and an enormous amount of other war materials were lost. Finland’s losses were limited to 25,904 dead or missing and 43,557 wounded.
Well, soviet source is soviet source. But if you insist sure we can consider them as legit source.
No, as I said the army size was 1.8million.
Just million ? Were sent to winland and according to your very good soviet sources none of them returned.
Yeah, current army of that time was running out of ammo, You can imagine how many bullets it takes to kill 1million soviets by so few winlanders.
These doubts were not reflected in Meretskov’s troop deployments, and he publicly announced that the Finnish campaign would take two weeks at most. Soviet soldiers had even been warned not to cross the border mistakenly into Sweden.
Stalin, for his part, was persuaded that the “Finnish business” could be completed with resources on hand in the Leningrad District. He was promised a gift of the “People’s Republic of Finland” for his birthday on Dec. 18. This was to be accomplished by unleashing an offensive in keeping with Russian military tradition, i.e., overwhelming the Finns with masses of men and sheer weight of metal.
Cmon now, no need to be so denial about it. There are other massive fk ups in history as well. You aint alone.
Link provided many times, so far none from you.
And to this one has been answered already so many times that you really are just living in communist denial by now.
Yeah, unfortunate for axis US took the ussr under its wing and carried this little baby thru the war. Otherwise the casualties for ussr would have eventually been 100% and only 30% of that would have been caused by axis, rest by your fascist stalin.
Pretty much,
Most famously, Soviet dictator Josef Stalin raised a toast to the Lend-Lease program
“I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war,” Stalin said. “The most important things in this war are the machines… The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war.”
Subject was logistic so no idea what you are after with this nonsense mambojambo.
So why they needed US to carry them ? Cmon now stanislav.
Well not at all winland owes massive gratitude to germans assistance.
Winland how ever had very little to do with nazi ideology, unlike ussr.
Politics have no place in this Forum, also glorifying the War is not acceptable. The Users in Question have been punished. Also I probably dont have to mention that each side in history makes their stories extra pretty and faar from reality
Closed till cleanup.
