Alright, hear me out (or don’t this is really stupid minus the few that prioritize accuracy above all else).
The Soviet body armor also stopped knives… sorry I threw up. Make the chest immune to melees?
Why would someone try to stab you in the stomach when they can obviously see you have a giant plate there. He’ll just stab you to the side.
It doesn’t matter that the ingame animations don’t reflect that for obvious reasons. Those plates definitely shouldn’t prevent melee damage.
12 Likes
Historically accurate armour, You mean remove the 10% damage reduction and make it only apply to fragments?
6 Likes
Hey that sounds fine to me.
1 Like
In WW2 the USSR used WW1 style body armour, it was nothing special and nothing new.
Several countries combat tested that style of body armour in WW1 but it was demonstrated to not be really effective, instead it was heavy, cumbersome and it generally made it difficult for a soldier to move.
That type of body armour was not effective in WW1 and it was also not really effective in WW2 either. That is why no one really used it in WW2 except for the USSR, and even they used it in relatively small numbers.
In many way the USSR WW2 style body armour is comparable to a placebo.
This is what really happens to USSR WW2 body armour when it was hit by shrapnel, against it was meant to protect the wearer:
Any wounds inflicted when that body armour in the image was penetrated by shrapnel would have been mortal for any USSR soldier wearing that body armour.
The USSR did produce special propaganda images meant to “demonstrate” that their body armour was effective, images like this one showning “dents” in the body armour (note the age of the USSR soldier):
Here is another image, this time of a captured USSR soldier, again with “dents” in the body armour:
The dents are higly unlikely to be caused by actual firearm rounds (such as 7.92 × 57 mm rounds fired by the German Kar 98 k, MG 34, MG 42 etc.), because these sort of rounds would have gone straight through the body armour.
Like stated earlier several countries combat tested that style of body armour in WW1, for example Germany. Here some images of German WW1 helmet and body armour:
Here is a close-up image of a WW1 German steel helmet with an extra front armour plate, to my knowledge this was only used in WW1 and not used in WW2, note the leather band which kept the armour plate in place and hooked on the protruding air vents which were only used on WW1 style German helmets:
All in all this style of body armour was generally introduced to protect against small fragments of shrapnel, not against actual firearm rounds.
The steel helmet as such itself was also not introduced in WW1 to protect the wearer against firearm rounds, but instead to protect the wearer against shrapnel.
The Germans, like the other nations that tested various types of body armour in WW1, found it to be NOT effective and they did NOT use it in WW2 as a result. There are those that state that the Germans, in particular the Waffen SS, in some cases used body armour in WW2 (even captured USSR WW2 body armour) but I have not seen any reliable evidence that corroborates this.
The WW1 and WW2 style of body armour, including the WW2 USSR body armour, should only offer very, very limited protection against small shrapnel fragments from field artillery, but no real protection against firearm rounds.
Field artillery plays only a very minor role in Enlisted, whereas in WW2 it played a key role.
In WW2 the figures varied somewhat due to local conditions but, by and large, each class of weapon caused the following proportion of total casualties: Light Infantry Weapons - 10 percent, Heavy Infantry Weapons - 35 percent, Field Artillery - 45 percent, Air Power - 5 percent, Other (including Armoured Fighting Vehicles etc.) - 5 percent. The more ammunition and field artillery pieces available, the more damage done by field artillery.
Simply said: artillery (shrapnel) does most of the killing and infantry does most of the dying.
Normally 80 percent of total ammunition (by weight) expended is used by field artillery. Much of this, however, is not used for killing. Considerable amounts (the majority, in fact) of ammunition were used either to disrupt the enemy’s movements, harass him, or to destroy enemy equipment positions.
The USA in September 1945 contemplated the introduction of a type of body armour for protection against small fragments of shrapnel. From a practical point of view the USA body armour was too little , too late to be used in WW2. I for one hope that this is NOT introduced in Enlisted, because I want Enlisted to be an authentic WW2 game, not a game with fantasy equipment:
Starting in February 1941 the British also contemplated the introduction of a type of body armour for protection against small fragments of shrapnel.
For what it is worth, this data come from “weaponsandwarfare”:
This British set or ‘suit’ of armour consisted of three specially shaped, 1 mm manganese steel plates which together weighed about 1.5 kg. The first plate, worn over the front of the chest to protect the heart, the great blood vessel and lung roots; the second plate, was worn horizontally over the lower part of the back below the shoulder blades in order to protect the base of the lungs, the liver, and by way of the stem like portion projecting upwards, part of the spinal column; and the third plate, hung from the lower edge of the first and covered the central and upper parts of the wearer’s belly. All the plates were slightly rounded to fit the curve of the body, and they were attached to each other by a system of interconnected webbing straps and metal buckles. The total weight of the armour suit, which also included the canvas covering, the straps and buckles, was about 1.6 kg.
The size of the body armour was governed by the limitations placed on its design by its required weight. These factors, combined with the findings that THE ARMOUR WAS LIKELY TO CREATE WORSE WOUNDS when high-penetration missiles, on passing through the armour were caused to be retained inside the wearer’s body instead of passing clean through an unprotected body, led to the suit being designed in the way it was. This would not only be the case with the British WW2 body armour but also the USSR WW2 body armour.
High-penetration projectiles were such items as rifle and machine gun bullets; low-penetration missiles were fine metal fragments from exploding bombs, shells and grenades.
In other words this WW1/WW2 body armour created EVEN WORSE WOUNDS when it was penetrated by high-penetration projectiles, the same applied to the USSR WW2 body armour.
This WW2 British body amour only covered those regions of the body where practically all wounds would have proved fatal, and it was therefore considered worthwhile to stop at least low-penetration missiles, IN THEORY.
Five thousand sets of this armour were manufactured and put out for evaluation trials with units of the Home Forces and troops in the Middle East; almost unanimously it was recommended that it should be adopted. It was considered to be reasonable comfortable to wear, with no appreciable effect on the wearer’s energy nor restrictions on his mobility, and the weight of the armour did not impair efficiency except on very long route marches. The chief objection was, however, that the clothing worn under the armour became very wet and sweaty, thus causing discomfort.
In April 1942 approval was given for the introduction of body armour into the British Army. Two months later production of the canvas covered pattern with felt pads, a substitute for and improvement on the original rubber edged pattern, was put in hand, once final confirmation trials, which were then being staged at the various infantry schools, had been concluded. It was found that, in the case of leading troops in close contact, complete freedom of movement when crawling or surmounting obstacles and rapid movement made in gaining cover were to some extent impaired, although these disadvantages were considered to be outweighed by the advantages gained in personal protection, IN THEORY.
Towards the end of 1942 it was realised that the production of body armour would have been competing with the metal required for the manufacture of steel helmets, and this resulted in priority being given to the latter. The estimate for the number of sets of body armour required by the forward troops of the British Army was given as 2 1/2 million. The Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force and Combined Operations also had their requirements, and pending finalization of demands by all services an order for 500,000 sets were placed in hand by the War Office in September 1943 with the Ministry of Supply.
Early in 1944, as a result of growing indifference on the part of military theatres and army commanders together with the very small demands placed by them for these suits of armour, the initial order for half a million sets was reduced to 300,000 sets, of which some 79,000 only were issued, 65,000 to the RAF and 15,000 to the Army in all theatres, the majority going to the 21st Army Group where the major portion was allocated to the British 1st and 6th Airborne Division for use during Operation Overlord, Market Garden and Varsity. The British Army in Italy had no requirements except for some 300 sets for Royal Engineers personnel on special duties. The remaining stocks were held in War Office depots and were never issued.
The British 1.6 kg suit of armour introduced during the war was in the end NEVER USED IN ACTION. The trials showed it to be less effective than had been expected, and although it could have been produced in large quantities in the last year of the war there was no demand for it.
I for one hope that this is NOT introduced in Enlisted, because I want Enlisted to be an authentic WW2 game, not a game with fantasy equipment:
The Japanese also experimented with body armour in WW2 and even some other weird armour experiments.
The US military captured some of this Japanese equipment:
In WW1 (sniper/marksman) armour shields were used but also deemed to be largely ineffective. The USSR and Japan ignored this experience and used them in WW2. Here are some WW2 Japanese examples:
The Japanese even experimented with some weird turtle like armour shields, which the US military also captured:
But, like I stated above: I for one hope that all this is NOT introduced in Enlisted, because I want Enlisted to be an authentic WW2 game, not a game with fantasy equipment that was either not used at all, used on a very limited scale or deemed to be ineffective and thus never generally issued.
So if Enlisted were to display the USSR WW2 body armour in an authentic manner then it would not really protect against firearm rounds but instead offer a very, very limited protection against small fragments of shrapnel from field artillery (howitzers, 75+ mm guns) and certain heavy infantry weapons (such as shrapnel from say German mortars, 75 mm and 150 mm Infantry Guns etc.).
In WW2 the WW1 style body armour used by the USSR was both obsolete and impractical due to the high effectivenes of the weaponry against which body armour was meant to protect. Ignoring this reality, the USSR in 1942 introduced steel body armour (Stalnoi Nagrudnik) on a limited scale consisting of two steel plates that were intended to cover the torso and groin areas.
The steel plates were only about 2 mm thick and weighed about 3.5 kg. They were issued on a limited scale and primarily to the USSR assault engineers and sometimes to other USSR soldiers, for example occasionally when defusing land mines. Reportedly the USSR soldiers generally found their body armour to be too heavy, too restrictive and cumbersome in the field, making it difficult for them to move and crawl.
Purportedly the USSR WW2 body armour was intended to protect against bayonet attacks, small fragments of shrapnel, and 9 mm pistol rounds with lead cores. The protection against 9 mm rounds effectively ceased because the Germans introduced improved 9 mm rounds. A further increase of the USSR body armour steel plates to a thickness of 2.6 mm late in the war did not alter the fact that the USSR WW2 body armour could not stop a direct hit of the improved 9 mm rounds and the 7.92 × 57 mm rounds and any other sized round in between.
Sadly the Enlisted developers have chosen to give the - in real life ineffective, obsolete - USSR WW2 body armour inauthentic capabilities in Enlisted (reportedly something akin to a 10% and 360 degree damage protection), so the USSR in Enlisted gets a level of protection that might only authentically be applied to post-1945 modern 360 degree protection body armour. Needless to say the USSR WW2 body armour generally only covered frontal areas of the body and not the side and rear, so it should authentically not be a 360 degree damage protection either in Enlisted.
As to the newly released German assault engineers with StG/ARs in Enlisted that are equipped with the German WW1 extra steel helmet plate: there is no reliable data available that this was issued or even used by the German military in WW2.
If USSR soldiers in Enlisted are equipped with this heavy steel body armour then they should get a severe penalty to movement in general and especially when crawling for it to be authentic. And this style of body armour, if authentic, should then only offer a very, very limited protection against small fragments of shrapnel in Enlisted, not a 360 degree protection against firearm rounds, and not even against a bayonet either because an enemy soldier would simply avoid the frontal armour plate in a bayonet attack.
Sadly, Enlisted is becoming more and more a fantasy game with each new version released.
Maybe, hopefully, the Enlisted developers will realize that they are best served to introduce an WW2 authentic game mode for those players that started playing Enlisted for an authentic WW2 experience.
They can maintain their currently increasingly fantasy version of Enlisted, in order to draw in and keep the players that want a fantasy game, but if the fantasy version of Enlisted is the only thing offered then Enlisted will over time lose all players that want to play an authentic WW2 game.
4 Likes
This, the German helmets and Soviet body armor bother me because anybody who’ll research them find they weren’t effective in the way the game has implemented.