well my bike squad has a engineer, and just added it back into German loadout, bit quicker/discrete than a truck.
haven’t played it forever, i don’t seem to have all the issue others have with it, maybe as i hold a real bike license? idk, but never driven a sidecar one.
And if all of above, means that my rider, can jump in some else truck and drive it, i vote for it lol
takes a broom and pokes stein again trying something against the biker squad?
My only comment on this is actually to ask why it takes such an agonizingly long time to level up the German motorcycle squad. By comparison, the SdKfz 7 squad was all kitted out in absolutely no time.
That’s… What I’m after.
I guess this is what you call a strawman argument.
Cue laugh track
Refuting an argument without a proper explanation doesn’t make it a valid argument.
In an argument regarding the viability of riders being tied with map design, you brought up medics and engineers. Engineers are useful regardless of the map. Medics, while in a shit position at the present moment, don’t need a good map to hand down med crates and heals.
A bike squad is only as useful as its ability to traverse an area from point A to point B as rapidly as possible. The map’s design and navigability is crucial to that effect. A bike in the streets of Berlin is useless compared to a bike in Tunisia.
False equivalency.
The value of an APC is a team’s spawn point. You don’t need to rapidly go to wherever so long as it serves its purpose. An APC behind your lines has value as a team asset. A bike behind friendly lines is just a more vulnerable MG nest.
Would you like a mirror?
Why are you insisting they should be separate classes when it would be mutually beneficial for them to be consolidated?
Just because they have different “roles” doesn’t mean they should be distinct. Especially, and when I have to repeat this multiple times:
You don’t need the Rider class to use a bike.
But you need the APC Driver class to use an APC.
The old bike squads pre-merge were around level 15 (or somewhere around there) unlocks. This meant that the exp requirement for them, as with other squads unlocked at the pre-merge level 11-20 range were higher than unlocks at the pre-merge level 1-10 range.
It’s worsened by the fact that since exp accrued by soldiers in a squad contribute to the squad’s exp, the higher the number of squad members in a squad, the faster you get level ups, in general.
Guess which squad is permanently stuck on a 2-man basis. 3 if you fork over your wallet for the premium version.
viable for some people*
i thought it could have gone without saying.
apparently not.
except it is.
not much better than a list of your nitpicks and present it as an argument.
bruh
you started with " viability is dependent on map design "
which i replied with:
to then conclude that if everyone would think like you, we wouldn’t have a game to begin with.
that is, including medics or many other classes just because are dependant from some factor or another.
just because it isn’t instantly as something else. or gratifing and fast something else.
loosing track of discussion already?
i have yet to see a map that doesn’t have flank areas for my bike to go to.
not in moscow, nor in stalingrad, and not even in berlin.
sounds like more exscuses to me than an actual " valid argument ".
so you just admitted they are different things used for different purpose.
it certainly took you long enouggh.
but that’s beside the point.
let me tell you, a bad driver on the apc is equally as a bad driver on the mg nest.
makes 0 difference.
one of us is trying to mix two different things into one.
the other is describing the differences and how are both used differently.
one is speaking with actual experience and both of her bikes are fully grinded & upgraded + owns actual premium squads to have multiple bikes. the other, is talking from his ass and whining how difficult are bikes to use
i don’t know about that, but it sure sounds like you could use one.
because i have yet to see the " mutually beneficial " part.
literally. in across one day you still haven’t provided a good reason, or a reason at all why those class should be combined when once again both squads are different.
other than " riders do not use bikes "
is that… all?
i’m starting to believe it’s more driven by personal opinions rather than actual objective necessity.
which that’s fine. i’m not gonna deny my owns.
but begs the question
why do you care? if you don’t use them yourself.
it appears as you if you want to remove them just because those don’t suit you.
( which i hardly see how it would be beneficial to downgrade apc to get a bike instead )
absolutely yeah they should lol.
i both run with bikes and apc for different purpose and having them at my finger tips without the needing of replace one or the other.
mechanized units are valid and perhaps doesnt really help my case that that’s precisely what i wanted since day one.
running with both bikes and apcs, but that’s beside the point.
what matter objectively for everyone, is that they have a choise and don’t have to compromise for it.
because those are both distinct different class.
the argument should be instead ( if it bothers you that much ) on how the rider class trooper it self could be putted at much better use being similar to the apc driver but onto offensive and lighty vehicles.
on the bike it self, it doesn’t make much sense because most people knew how to drive a bike back then.
on the apc, or any actual light vehicle was a different story.
and just because the rider is not being used in the bike, doesn’t mean it’s a good reason as any to limit it under the apc driver.
because guess what. apc drivers and riders are a different thing with a different name.
and if you want to use to much that rider class, light armed vehicles ( or even AA vehicles ) would be the answer.
so that apc can still be used for rallies, and rider for offensive capabilities.
clear as day.
So let me get this straight. You’re saying “For x class to be useful, y conditions need to be present”
Then you bring up classes with relatively easier conditions to fulfill over the Rider class, which is limited by map design.
Do you need a Self-Propelled Gun class to use a tank destroyer?
They are indeed used for different purposes. But one class is in more active use. The other can be replaced with literally any other class that can drive a bike.
A spawn point is a spawn point. Its usefulness is its location, and ultimately, whether or not someone does spawn on it is a choice on the player’s part.
One has made a heavy investment in a pointless for the meta squad.
The other has the basic sensibility to have common sense instead of going full sunk cost fallacy.
The new class is intended to be the tanker class of motorized vehicles.
With its consolidation, anyone can freely swap between motor vehicles. Some with special capabilities like spawn trucks, others with just speed and a vehicle mounted weapon.
Since Riders are unnecessary in a Rider squad, especially when fully upgraded, any more than the maximum number of riders in a rider squad are useless. Especially since there doesn’t seem to be any prospects or announcements of the Rider class’s growth.
Instead, the Rider class, like the Medic class, became the “class you have to unlock before you get to the good class”. The APC Driver and Assaulter II, respectively.
The goal is make progression smoother for everyone.
I know one argument against riders and trooptransport becoming the same class - motorcycles seem too small compared to the big trucks - meaning it would be much harder to spot them if they become respawn points.
Motorcycles wouldn’t get to be respawn points since they are not APCs. You get to choose between APC and motorcycles.
i’m not.
that’s your whole argument.
" just because terrain is not in my favor, bikes bad "
both conditions are relatively easier to furfill.
heck, even greater evils can be solved if someone in those office would want.
all i’m saying is, you’re claiming things that aren’t true. and providing exscuses or minor setbacks as major drawbacks.
and therefore, just because i as much can’t do X or Y, doesn’t mean everyone cannot.
because nothing is preventing you or me to use bikes despite our differences.
but i don’t shovel my bikes at your throats, as much you want to take them away because you either don’t like them, or can’t figure out uses.
personally, i think we should. just like they did to attackers and figher planes.
remember? both are planes, yet are not in the same category?.
and now you want to do the opposite of airplanes, and more in like with tanks on apc and riders? nah.
on top of making SPG their own class,
we should as well increase the slots for free to player and anyone really.
so they can both use a tank and a spg, or a spg and a plane, or a spg and a rider squad, or a rider squad with a plane etc. creating more possibilties and choises.
so we would differentiate the grind as well. because people who likes tanks, don’t need spg in their line up and vice versa or being forced to grind the other type.
THAT, is your mistake.
you see, the rider class isn’t, and shouldn’t be just a bike.
but an active shock troops squad with vehicles. meant to harass and support whenever it can.
so should be the player liberty to chose and have both classes if one decides it’s a good idea.
that’s what you believe on.
you take this game more as a job than an actual game lmao.
nice little narrative you are going for your self.
too bad it couldn’t be further from the truth.
more of a subclass, but sure, we could call it that.
well, no.
because once again, the APC driver was meant to drive APCs. not just any vehicle.
otherwise we would have tankers instead and kept those.
differences are so sustain the various class and not make a confusion out of it.
which once again, bikers could, and should remain what they are plus some upgrade to actually use the rider class. i wouldn’t mind being forced to use rider as a driver.
but that’s not up to me.
but to make riders viable for alot of people ( you included, perhaps ) add more vehicles to it that would require a dedicated driver.
i just explained that above.
they certainly have their place, and their uses could be expanded to be just the funny bikers boy.
heck, even give them trucks or more support roles to diversify at the cost of the apc rally.
could work anything really.
removal is not an answer.
which the " chore " is kinda unnecessary. but does not disqualify the squad either.
i can sort of get behind. but how about you suggest to first unlock the apc, and as a sub folder the rider squad? to then get eventual apcs and riders vehicle first and the latter as sub folders too?
only then, we would be into an agreement.
was that that hard?
but, we are kinda too optimistic about them splitting the grind of tank and airplanes to somehow separate them in two dedicated lines for each role similar to how partially infantry squads works.
after all, that was made on purpose to increase the grind.
But thats the problem, APC have a complete different squad composition
Except this suggestion is about consolidating the two classes. You would have your “bikers” but under a different name. And would be able to use things that aren’t bikes.
This isn’t the “get rid of riders” thread. This is the “combine bikers with apc drivers” thread.
I was actually planning on making such a thread to tie pilots into one class, and making spawns restricted solely by the category of vehicle they spawn in.
You realize that if the rider and apc driver squad is combined, this opens up more possibilities for the class in the future, right?
The other way around. Frankly.
APC drivers already do that. Even if they’re technically not driving “armored personnel carriers”.
As the riflemen of bike squads.
Then you understand that they do have the problem.
Wouldn’t be any different from planes and tanks having more or less crew slots.
Just slot in the crew you want based on the seat capacity.
that’s simply an argument that goes for pretty much anything.
even tanks lol.
now, are bikes or tank for that matter, harmed by the terrains?
no.
which becomes a yes only if you are incable of learning how the actual tank or bikes perform.
so it is just a matter of preferences which obviously you do not like.
given your past record, we are not far off from that assumption.
which… just like planes, and how tanks should, you cannot, and should not consolidate two different classes.
it has no purpose other than harm those who wants and actively use both classes at the same time.
consolidations usually happens only on things that are similar and makes sense or could benefit.
so far, as stated, the bikers do not gain anything from becoming an apc.
thank god you’re not in charge
but as far as it goes for that statement, i have nothing to say other than " good luck " of those chances ever happening.
except it does not.
and it should not.
because bikes are different.
and… it’s funny that you mention it, because i hardly see how consolidating different things into one somehow shorten it’s grind. it absolutely does not.
just like planes and tanks are currently right now.
and both are at the both ends of a different spectrum.
how… are tankers a subclass of apcs?
they have different perks and perks points.
not to mention, both in real life had different trainings.
one that drove a sdkfz 251 wouldn’t all of a sudden being able to handle a tiger or a panther.
except. apc drivers don’t and most likely won’t drive light armed vehicles.
because APCs are a total different thing
what?
how
personally, no.
otherwise i wouldn’t have bought the premium version too.
bikes are fine.
howver, bikers could be even greater and forfill more roles than just one.
just like most things in this game.
which… the rider improvement was and is an attempt to avoid a df introducing a new class just to make them use light vehicles. when bikers already and could/should forfill that role too.
if you want, you can use bikes, if not, some other lovely armored / scout cars.
it’s that simple really.
that’s quite the oversimplication my friend.
and… more of that hopium speaking.
well a bit rude.
let me rephrase it.
i’m not sure why you should do that, or ask them to do that.
you’d be increasing exponentially the grind opposed to what you are " theoretically " even trying/attempting to do.
which, still. good luck.
What is the harm?
Reading comprehension goes a long way. But I’m not your teacher.
When you start grinding out a fresh level 1 infantry squad, you get 1 of x class. The rest are riflemen.
The more you level up and develop the squad, the less riflemen you place in the squad in favor of specialist classes.
Same logic applies with a rider squad. You start with riders. You end up with none by the end.
Unless you have the premium bike squad. In that case you don’t have a choice. Like all other premiums.
What are the unique vehicle rewards for the current ongoing event?
What was the newest premium vehicle squad they introduced?
What premium vehicle squad was available to pre-order on the 1st-2nd week of December?
Were these vehicle squads unarmed transports?
What do you think was everyone’s reaction when assaulter 1s were replaced with medics?
Depriving people of a powerful early campaign squad in favor of a niche class and squad meant to be replaced was nothing short of frustrating to those who knew.
the harm would be not being able to fully run with what players grinded for, and reduce the overhal content of the game.
why should i run with bikes if i’m restricted to halftracks?
why can’t i run both as it is now?
why should i sacrifice my apc to use an offensive capable vehicle that is faster and more lethal for both cases?
you’re sacrificing choices.
the very thing i like about enlisted. ( or anyone for that matter. it’s not just about me )
having fun while using whatever anyone wants.
" → the new class is intended to be the tanker class of motorized vehicles "
→ gets told that in reality, the apc is a subclass of tankers which also works differently having different and less perks
→ " Reading comprehension goes a long way. "
sure hun.
you’d be failing at teaching as much as making a cohesive argument over a forum.
that’s for sure.
because it’s quite stupid needing a rider to drive a bike.
even though i wouldn’t mind it if it becomes " necessary " like the premium squads.
but if you want to make them so necessary, add more vehicles.
I struggle to see what’s hard to understand about any of the things i’m say.
so…
do i have to specify each time when i talk about light armed vehicles of the recon / riders that i have been talking about for the past few hours?
how about you worry then about your own
very funny. thanks, i needed a laugh for the day.
as it goes for an answer, all the vehicles, what they unlock, events, premiums etc, the answer is very simple.
APC.
which you might are not aware, but
APC =/= scout / armored cars.
in all honesty, i don’t know.
given the merge, i’m seeing more medics than ever before.
so… i think they’ve taken it good i suppose.
dunno about that.
i don’t think that’s the case otherwise people would be complaining on a greater extent.
yet i haven’t saw many.
granted, i’m not all day on the forum.
but maybe you can tell me something about it since you are both active on the forum and discord.
which as far as it goes for the bikers, those did not replaced anything. and could be simply switched to be a sub classes inside the apc driver opposed as being replaced for no reason.
you’re simply taking differences aside, taking them as " major issues " use different arguments to base them upon, and proposing inchoesives suggestions / " solutions " that won’t solve the very thing you’re trying to address.
so to reiterate, you’re allegedly wanting to combine riders into apc ( for still unknown reasons ) beside steamlining the grind.
then… why shouldn’t riders become a grindable sub folder of APC and link both vehicles that go for the apc alongside vehicles that would go for riders under the same levels as one the subfolder of the other?
so that, you can keep both squads and let players decide which one to use while limiting the grind to only one of the two ?
for example.
you unlock APC driver I with a kubelwagen / opel blitz. as a sub folder, the biker with the K750/kettenkrad.
then, you can unlock the Kubelwagen / opel blitz, and as a sub folder, a kubelwagen with machinegun.
IN THE SAME LEVEL.
then later on, you have to grind the APC class II with the sdkfz 7, and as a subfolder for the rider, a 222 or something like that.
IN THE SAME LEVEL.
why that shouldn’t be the case.
planes sort of are like this.
not only you would streamline the grind, but avoid df of adding a third class for offensive vehicles such as the mg on a car, or armored vehicles such as 8rads or 222s. ( or ba 64s. m3 scout cars etc )
as well as making the rider more diversify and have more choises.
0 negatives.
yet, you don’t like it because?.
So what’s stopping you from having both squads out with a bike and an apc each?
→ Talking about “the new class” (the subject) described metaphorically as “the tanker class of motorized vehicles” (the predicate)
→ 2nd guy responds with “more of a subclass, but sure we could call it that.”
→ 1st guy says “…the other way around. Frankly.” Still referring to the original subject of the original statement.
→ 2nd guy interprets it as “the apc is a subclass of tankers which also works differently having different and less perks”, having taken the response as meaning it was intended for the predicate part of the sentence in the original statement.
Reading comprehension.
No future prospect. No announcement or positive statement by the devs. APCs introduced on the verge of the merge, and then right after it without addressing the position of riders at all, and, for whatever reason, calling the “APC Driver” class “APC Driver II” as if to imply that something preceded it the same way “Assaulter IIs” are preceded by “Medics”.
I’m addressing the present.
Then say so. The premium and event APCs are literally all armed with something.
Seeing more medics do not correlate it to being popular.
Before the merge, medics only existed in 2 campaigns. In all others, you had assaulter I squads.
Medics are also the earliest way of acquiring submachineguns, which is a key weapon category when you’re just starting out the game.
Because there’s no reason for them to be separate in the first place.
Not to mention, this is all under the assumption we are getting more vehicles for the Rider class in the first place, which, I must reiterate, is unlikely given the lack of an announcement for it, or even a 2024 roadmap to follow.
This is also more complicated that simply consolidating the classes.
because according to your own idea which you haven’t really though much beside it,
to just being able to run with one apc squad, and one premium squad.
in my case, it wouldnt be that much of an issue because i did bought the premium bike, and premium apc.
so from now to the " post changes " aftermath,
i’d find my self not being able to run with 3/4 halftrack squads, and 2 bikes.
but 3/2 halftracks and 1/2 bikes.
differences being, the free to play varient of the sdkfz 7 and the bike being collapsed into the same squad.
my entire line up is made of motorized infantry.
which as far as it goes for a free to player, you can only use an apc, or a bike.
effectively cutting out the ammount of content one could run because you have to make sacrifices in choises.
which are still different and one the subclass of the others.
so… way to go shoen.
way to go…
have you wondered your self why that’s the case?
of course not.
can’t see or think out of the box even if it’s in front of your own nose.
which that’s your own interpretation.
not a factual or proven statement.
just like pretty much anything, subject to change.
which it should.
nothing is set in stones as you likely believe.
which it’s why if we have to:
you make suggestions predicting and making assertions based on the future to.
otherwise you’re just making pointless changes that will change once more.
since there’s no shadow of a doubt 222s, light armored vehicles and what not will be a thing,
it’s pointless to unite two different classes, add then behind the same class designed to do different things just because one guy can’t see any differences or complains about the grinding ( despite exponentially increase it by his own “”“solutions”“” )
so you find your self with a squad that has all sort of vehicles, but you cannot run it more than once or twice.
worse, of what devs could do, is introduce a third new class.
fairly sure it was clear as night and day.
but keep talking about others comprehension 
might be.
but they increasingly appeard more than before.
so still unsure your point here.
considering that you get rifles at much early stages, i highly doubt that.
… as well as there are no reasons for them to be united.
go figure…
based on what?
your own feelings?
thank you, but i’ll be skipping those thank you very much.
it’s not a matter of IF light vehicles will be added, but more of a when.
and make sure current squads can accomodate them.
which the most reasonable thing to do despite your bad calls, is to actually keep them inside the rider class to give it more variety and add more reasons for the class it self to exist.
rather than perhaps get *Drivers type III with the ability of using cars with machineguns etc.
adding pointless and needless costly class when we should rework our existing ones.
but i suppose a matter of opinions.
guess we’ll see in the future.