BR 4 ⬅ The Sherman Firefly

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The Firefly is an Iconic Commonwealth vehicle credited with being the tank the Tiger 1 and Panther Feared

However, Currently it holds the rating BR 5, along side heavy tanks such as the King Tiger 2, IS 2, Ho-Ri, Pershing and Super Pershing.

This is well out of place when all its counterparts are at BR IV (and have been moved to BR IV)

  • IS 1
  • T34-85
  • Tiger 1 H (its purpose for being)
  • Panther (its purpose for being)
  • Sherman 76
  • Chi Ri II

These are “ALL” rated Higher than the Firefly in Warthunder. This is significant because the Firefly’s primary role, is anti-armor, and yet, all the BR IV tanks in Enlisted are rated higher in Warthunder… a game centered on TANK COMBAT

Summary/ TLDR:

APHE rounds with Enough HE filler just have to get the round inside the enemy tank and over pressure the crew, AP rounds have to specifically hit the AMMO to get the same results, requiring Knowledge that a penetration indicator CANT tell you (and ammo doesn’t go off 100% every time when hit)

Shell Demonstration:

NOTE: Its not about the target, It’s about the After Penetration damage. (Replace target with Tiger 1, Panther, Chi-Ri or Ho-RI prototype or whatever you like… you get about the same results).

The Sherman Firefly itself has “ONE” outstanding feature, and that is the Armor penetration on Its APDS rounds (16). But in reality, its relative effectiveness is arguably no better than the BR IV cannons with the Exception of 2 specific tanks (88, 85, 76, 75 high velocity). In return for Its Good penetration, it requires specific targeting and low after pen damage.

  • It has a BR 3 Sherman Chassis (very squishy)
  • It has no stabilizer (The gun rocks terribly from the smallest movement, making it difficult to advance)
  • Very bad gun Depression (-5 degrees. this is the worst of ALL allied tanks and requires flat ground)
  • It uses Solid shot, while this gives It great penetration, its post pen Damage is nothing compared to ammunition with HE filler (So even though It can front pen a Tiger IIS mantlet, it might only kill 1 or 2 crew)

I would hate for this Iconic tank to continue to linger far out of its league. Please consider Moving it to BR IV where its natural opponents reside.

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Yes its BR IV tank if Tiger and Panther is BR IV I have no idea how the Firefly is BR V xD

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They should move the Achilles to BR 3 then like the M10

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Yeah. Achillies could use a write up

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@James_Grove @Euthymia07

I Just stumbled across your response to another user on the RU forum asking the same thing about the Sherman Firely.

I would like to respond (Respectful debate)

Do you remember all this Issues people had with Shermans against Tanks before they were given their M61 Shot? (HE Filler) They had “Pretty good penetration” (more than enough at their BR), but that wasn’t the issue. It was because of the Solid shot after penetration damage requiiring inner tank anatomy knowledge

“Penetration ONLY matters up to the point it can comfortably penetrate. After that point, Damage on After Pen is the most Important…excess penetration is not really that valuable”

Shell Damage Types: (What Enlisted has inherited from Warthunder)

APHE VS AP

APHE (HE filler) has the advantage of not needing to know the inner Anatomy of Enemy Tanks as much. AS long as the round has the minimum penetration needed, HE filler does the rest. The more you have the better. After a certain Point of HE filler all you have to do is get the round inside the tank and it will overpressure the entire crew (i.e 1 shot).

Solid shot has no HE filler, Instead you have to rely on actually hitting components/crew Requiring you to know the Anatomy of the Enemy Tanks.

Summary/ TLDR:

APHE rounds with Enough HE filler just have to get the round inside the enemy tank and over pressure the crew, AP rounds have to specifically hit the AMMO to get the same results, requiring Knowledge that a penetration indicator CANT tell you (and ammo doesn’t go off 100% every time when hit)

If Warthunder, (A game that balances around Tank Vs Tank) BR ratings aren’t enough:

Sherman Firefly Rated less than Enlsited BR 4 tanks

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If thats STILL not an “Iron clad case” then let me finish with the following:

“All top Tier tanks” can be penetrated Frontally By something in BR 3 and/or 4 that has “HE FILLER”…(EXCEPT Allies vs Germany… :face_with_open_eyes_and_hand_over_mouth:)…Im not saying easily.

  • IS-2 (both versions) can be front penned by BR 3/4/5 tanks withs APHE (Basically all of them)
  • Ho-RI can be front penned by BR 4 tanks with HE filler (anything with 76mm M62 shot)
  • Super Pershing Can be front Penned by BR 4 tanks with HE filler (Panther, Tiger, Chi Ri II)
  • Tiger II H (KV 2), Tiger II P (Anything with 76/85mm)

So WHY, with all the downside of the Sherman Firefly is penetration the reason for still being put at BR 5???

Recap of Sherman Firefly Downsides
  • It has a BR 3 Sherman Chassis (very squishy)
  • It has no stabilizer (The gun rocks terribly from the smallest movement, making it difficult to advance)
  • Very bad gun Depression (-5 degrees. this is the worst of ALL allied tanks and requires flat ground)
  • It uses Solid shot, while this gives It great penetration, its post pen Damage is nothing compared to ammunition with HE filler (So even though It can front pen a Tiger IIS mantlet, it might only kill 1 or 2 crew)
  • Less crew than other Shermans

Just because It can Penetrate the Tiger II (only the turret mantlet mind you…its not a Magic “I win” ammunition)…you still have to hit the ammo, which the crew are in front of and can absorb

It could Already Pen The Ho-Ri and all other tanks without APDS (same as most other BR 4 Tanks)…And its default round doesn’t even have the most penetration at BR 4

Its also a premium…Where is the incentive to owning/buying it? (its an up gunned BR 3 Tank, using solid shot)

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@James_Grove, @Euthymia07

Last thing to wrap it up. Im pretty adamant about Justice for the Firefly :stuck_out_tongue: (Visual Demonstration instead of an Essay)

Demonstration of why having High Penetration on the Firefly isn’t a good enough reason for an up gunned BR 3 Tank using solid shot to be at BR 5.

NOTE: Its not about the target, It’s about the After Penetration damage. (Replace target with Tiger 1, Panther, Chi-Ri or Ho-RI prototype or whatever you like… you get about the same results).

Solid Shot on most targets requires Knowledge of the components inside the tank. Penetration indicator cannot help you and unless you hit the ammo rack (and it doesn’t always ignite), You more often than not need follow up shots…That is not a good trait for A squishy tank when enemy crews can change seats and BLAP you faster than you can reload.

APHE (with Enough Filler) just needs to get inside the tank and most of the time job is done.

After the patch ALL BR 5 tanks will be Heavy tanks or TDs with High Penetration and excessive HE filler. Firefly is out of its league. I defer to my comment above. All Other Nations have BR IV tanks that can Pen BR 5 Tanks and they have HE filler (allies cant pen 2)…So its not a good reason to banish the Firefly to BR 5.

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With it’s performance it’s more of a counter vs Tiger 1 and Panther than Tiger 2.

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Exactly its purpose. I did start with the TIger 1 as the target but went bigger to be sure. (The Tiger and panther showed the same thing. APHE 1 shot it, Solid shot required follow up unless you hit the ammo rack)

Same Test on Tiger 1 E

https://youtu.be/e8jyVtRIIVI?si=7NnnoKHK7NPdIJcI

https://youtu.be/M9bI11iBl-U?si=Wgme88e3xWl2lPgJ

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Now i would also wish for Calliope to go down in BR (along with a buffed Panzerwerfer 42) as it’s rockets can’t kill tanks anyway and Germans have Pazerfaust 60 at BR3. Your 75mm can’t do anything against Tiger/Panther.

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Ive always thought The panzerwerfer 42 was BR 3 (3 crew, paper thin, low ammo, Long ass ressuply)

But The Calliope…lol… I know its just a BR 3 Sherman but man…you can spam alot of rockets lol…AND HE with the cannon and MGs at the same time…Can keep it up for a long time.

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@YuiHibiki (you dont have to read it all. The video and the TL;DR pretty much covers it. The extra detail is if further convincing is required

I made two follow up replies with a lot more explanation

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Yea it’s fine also i will just reply in this post since i will take note for the other post for consideration in the next BR change patch (I think it’s quite similiar to what WT does they always do BR changes in batches instead of individuals)

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Thanks for your time :+1: