Better Balancing of bullet damage by caliber

Today, we got a nice patch to correct some mistakes about japanese weapons, which is good, but as a result, some japanese weapons are now clearly OP as a result, and I say that as a Japan main. But there are still some inconsistencies with these weapons, and this is particularly true for the damage the weapons deal. For example, the japanese SMGs chambered in 8mm Nambu still deal more damage than the SMGs of other nations chambered in 9mm Parabellum ex: MP40, ZK-383, Sten…), while it should be the opposite, because the 8mm Nambu was a weaker cartridge than the 9mm Parabellum.

Because of this fact, I have researched the power of each pistol cartridge in real life that is present ingame (and some that could be added ingame later) to help balance the damage of certain weapons. I have classified these cartridges from the most powerful to the least powerful. I looked at the joules of each cartridge, and preferably of the FMJ bullet type, which was the most common bullet type used by the different armies of the world during WW2.

Here is the link I used for my research (yes, I know it is wikipedia, but it is there that I could find such a convenient table with all the links to each cartridge, and with very detailed technical informations in each article): List of handgun cartridges - Wikipedia

So, here is my classification from most powerful to least powerful:

9×25mm Mauser
7.62×25mm Tokarev
7.63×25mm Mauser
.455 Webley
.45 ACP
9×19mm Parabellum
.38 ACP
7.65×21mm Parabellum
9mm Glisenti
9×23mm Steyr
8×22mm Nambu
7.62×38mmR
7.65×20mm Long
.380 ACP
.38 S&W
9mm Japanese revolver
.38 Special
.32 ACP
7×20mm Nambu
.25 ACP

As you can see, the damage dealt by some weapons in the game in inaccurate, just like I said in my example above with the 8mm Nambu being more powerful than the 9mm Parabellum ingame.

In my opinion, the balance of the weapons damage should be more historically accurate, and the devs could adjust the weapons stats and BR with the recoil, and the dispersion, and also reload time and ADS speed.

For example:
-Weapons that fire a weaker cartridge should have less recoil than the weapons firing powerful cartridges.
-Was the weapon’s weight light or heavy ? A heavy weight can help mitigate recoil.
-On the other hand, a lightweight weapon will have a faster ADS speed and be way more handy than a heavyweight weapon.
-Another thing that can influence the ADS speed is the length of the barrel: a short barrel will make the ADS speed faster, because it is easier to do than on a weapon with a long barrel.
-Weapons with longer barrels will inflict slightly more damage and have less dispersion over distance than weapons with shorter barrels.
-High rate of fire weapons have more recoil than the ones having a slow rate of fire.
-Was this weapon ergonomic or awkward to use?
-Was there a vertical grip under the barrel, which helps mitigate vertical recoil, or a classic handguard that helps mitigate horizontal recoil ? Using the mag as a vertical grip can do the same effect as a normal vertical grip. Also, did this weapon have a classic buttstock, or a pistol grip ?
-A bipod at the end of the barrel adds some weight to the end of the barrel and can help mitigate the recoil, even if you don’t use said bipod.
-Of course, a weapon with a muzzle brake will have an easier to control recoil than the weapons which don’t have such feature.
-Was this weapon made before WW2 (high quality materials and finition, so less dispersion), or was it a last-ditch weapon (low quality materials and finition, so more dispersion) ?
-The smaller the mag, the faster the reload speed: a weapon with a 20 round mag will be very quick to reload, as opposed to a weapon using a drum mag, because drum mags were known to be very heavy and awkward to use, so their reload time should be way longer.
-Etc, etc…

There can also be some exceptions: for example, the Beretta Model 38 fired 9mm Parabellum round, but the italians made a cartridge of this caliber specifically for this gun that was 15% more powerful than the standard 9mm Parabellum, so the power of this specific cartridge could be comparable to the .45 ACP.

I know that all the criterias that I mentioned above for each weapon are probably already considered by the devs when balancing a weapon, but I feel like the way some weapons feel when shooting them should be refined way more in some cases.

Feel free to let me know what you think of this idea ! Your likes help to give more visibility to this topic !
Thanks ! :slightly_smiling_face:

P.S. : Maybe I’ll do the same for rifle cartridges on this topic later.

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barrel length should also mildly affect the damage of firearms, so 9x19 coming out of a browning HP shouldn’t be the exact same of 9x19 coming out of an MP35

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Indeed, I took the base technical information for each bullet, but of course the same bullet will be slightly more powerful if it is shot from a weapon with a longer barrel, but the difference wouldn’t be that huge. I forgot to mention that too. And I made this topic to emphasize the big inconsistencies in the damage stats of some SMGs that don’t make much sense, especially when you look at the example I described in my post above.

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doesnt really work that way.
rule of thumb for pistols / smg’s in this case would be bigger the round bigger the damage.

Given that the exact same bullets do different damage from MG’s and SLR’s and bolt action rifles - I think you have didly squat chance of getting this.

I know that fact, of course it is needed for balancing reasons, and rightfully so: if the bullets of the MG42 did as much damage as the ones from the Kar98, this would make the MG42 way too OP, even if these two weapons use the same cartridge. What I am talking about here is to better balance weapons only inside one category.
For example, wouldn’t you find this weird if one day the devs decide that the damage of the Breda 30 is higher than the damage of the MG42, while the latter has a way more powerful cartridge IRL ?
I am talking about this kind of case, but in that topic, I am talking specifically about SMGs for now (and maybe I will do other weapon categories later).

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I have edited my first post with more parameters for the weapons, some were reminded to me by Willcario. There are a lot of things to take into account, so it’s hard to remember everything at the same time when writing such posts. :sweat_smile:

yes, also longer barreled guns should take a little longer to aim as well

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I have added that in my yesterday’s edit.

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Didnt noticed, but yeah, nice ideas

I have done the same type of list for the rifle cartridges, which are used in bolt-action, semi-auto and automatic rifles, as well as machine guns. I know that different types of weapons ingame that use the exact same cartridge are going to have very different damage stats, because it is needed for balancing the categories of weapons: for example, Kar98k, Gewehr 43 and MG42 all use the same caliber, but they have different damage stats for balancing reasons. The goal of these lists is to better balance the weapons inside each categories: for example, the Breda 30 chambered in 6.5mm will inflict less damage per bullet than the MG42, chambered in the more powerful 7.92mm.

Just like in my first post, I searched the power in joules of each rifle cartridge present in the game (and some that could be added ingame later), and if possible, I tried to find more specifically the characteristics of the types of bullets used during WW2. And just like in my first post, I have classified these cartridges from the most powerful to the least powerful.

Here is the list I used: List of rifle cartridges - Wikipedia

So, here is my classification from most powerful to least powerful:

7.62×53mmR (finnish version of 7.62×54mmR with some of their Mosins chambered in this caliber)
8×59mmRb Breda (some italian semi-auto rifles are chambered in this caliber ingame)
8×50mmR Lebel
7.92×57mm Mauser
7.62×54mmR
.30-06 Springfield
.303 British
8×56mmR (for the Steyr-Mannlicher M1895)
7.7×58mm Arisaka
7.5×57mm MAS (note on this caliber under the list)
7.5×54mm French
6.5×53mmR (for the Mannlicher M1893 removed from the tree)
.276 Pedersen
6.5×50mmSR Arisaka
7.35×51mm Carcano
6.5×52mm Carcano

Note on 7.5×57mm MAS: short-lived predecessor of the 7.5×54mm French, no characteristics found, maybe slightly more powerful ? Only used in the FM 24, which were later almost all rechambered in 7.5×54mm French, the version of the gun in that caliber was then designated FM 24/29, it seems that german forces captured some of these guns still chambered in the old caliber during WW2.

A few other notes: I haven’t included the intermediate cartridges/carbine cartridges (so no M1 carbine or Stg44), maybe I’ll do a list later. I also haven’t included the anti-tank rifles cartridges in that list. I haven’t found many informations about the 10.75×58mmR cartridge of the Berdan II rifle, but I guess it is OK if it is a one shot, one kill weapon, because it is the only single shot rifle in the game right now using the old black powder.

All the parameters that I stated for better balancing weapons in the games are available in my first post after the list of handgun cartridges. These ideas are also applied for all other types of weapons.

As always, feel free to let me know what you think of this idea ! Your likes help to give more visibility to this topic !
Thanks ! :slightly_smiling_face:

I have a few interesting videos about how guns feel when shooting them, with Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armouries Museum in the UK, which houses a collection of thousands of iconic weapons from throughout history (I better call him by his full title, lol). It can help with this topic about better balancing the guns in the game. These videos are pretty long, I did not watch them entirely, because the parts where he shoots the guns are the most interesting for this topic. Here you go:

And also another video about japanese guns that I posted on another topic, he doesn’t shoot the guns, but there are lots of informations about these guns, and especially about the 8mm Nambu cartridge:

And finally a video of Gun Jesus shooting the Beretta Model 38A, and as you can see, this thing has zero recoil. Plus the fact that this gun shot during WW2 a 15% more powerful 9mm cartridge specifically made for this gun than the standard 9mm Parabellum cartridge, and you can see why this gun would probably need a significant buff in game: